Comparative Studies in World Epics

final information

2005-05-03T10:13:00.000-05:00

Here is the final information copied from blackboard if anyone needs it!

CCI 227 Comparative Studies in World Epics
Final Exam
Thursday, May 5, 2005
Noon – 3 p.m.

Answer both questions:

1 Comparative Cosmoses

Describe the shape and the relationship between the major features of the universes that Odysseus, Dante, and Satan inhabit. Include descriptions of the shape and location of the earth, sky, sun & moon, planets, stars, Heaven, and Hell. Draw a map if you need to. Be sure to specify which (if any) of these elements can be said to be divine (i.e., a god of some kind), or alive, or the product of some act of special creation, or simply to exist without having been created.

2 Freedom to do wrongExplain the relationship of the free will of Satan, Adam, and Eve to the foreknowledge of God, according to Milton in Paradise Lost. Why did God the Father consider their freedom so important that he allowed them to do evil? In what ways did he try to help them preserve their freedom?

Compare the above to the activities of Athena in the Odyssey with respect to the punishment of the suitors. Be sure to specify precisely what those activities are. Are Athena's plans and activities with Odysseus intended to help the suitors to do right or to push them into further evil?

The Tree

2005-04-29T05:52:00.000-05:00

Last night in the wee hours of the morning I was going over this Milton thing and the Fall and I kept coming back to the Tree. The Tree is what is suspect here in the Free Will argument. Just suppose for a moment Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree. The Fall would still occur just later not sooner. It seems only logical to conclude that without war, famine, plague or disease to
impact the Garden population it would have reached its present levels (almost six billion) in very short order. The odds grow right along with the population that somebody sooner or later will eat from the tree. That makes the Fall inevitable no matter what Adam and Eve do.

Milton's view of women promulgated

2005-04-28T09:48:00.000-05:00

As we discussed in class today and in prior classes, Milton has an open opinion in a women's role in society: being an inferior role to a man. He exemplifies this position in his depiction of Eve during the Fall. He paints an unflattering portrayal of woman through the ease in which Satan is able to persuade Eve to taste the forbidden fruit. Milton also characterizes women throughout the poem, whenever he can in other books as well, as the weaker sex. He demonstrates this belief in Book IX by allowing Eve to buy into Satan's compliments; which insinuate that Eve cares more for superficial things such as beauty as opposed to sagacious things such as God's benevolence and benediction. He advances this belief upon Adam and Eve meeting later on. He suggests that not only is Eve superficial, but that she is also out to corrupt other people, namely Adam, by luring him into eating the fruit. Eve wants to level the playing field and create an equal accord between Adam and herself. Therefore, based on Milton's personal beliefs and creative writing techniques, Eve comes across as being harmful to others and a manipulator of good people. Does my argument hold any water?

temptation in book 9

2005-04-28T08:17:00.000-05:00

Satan tempts Eve to eat the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. He claims that because of this fruit he is capable of talking with Eve. God has forbidden Adam and Eve from eating from this tree because he said it meant death, but Satan, as the serpent, ate (so he claims) and not only does he still live, but can speak and think. Eve seeing the power of the fruit before her eyes makes all the warnings from God seem exaggerated. After all of the warnings from God you would think she would know better than to eat the apple. This book presents that actual fall of mankind, which was different from the other books which led up to this point. Do you think Adam would have fell to the treachery of the snake? (As opposed to being tempted by Eve later on) And what if Milton decided to twist the allegorical story of Adam and Eve and have Eve ask the snake to take a bite of the fruit first to prove he actually ate it?

Blind faith?!

2005-04-27T07:43:00.000-05:00

Going back to yesterdays discussion. We briefly in class talked about blindly following faith. I was reminded of this while reading a book to the kids I babysit. In the book a boy is walking along and finds an egg laying on the ground. He looks around and sees flamingos, aligators, and turtles. So he calls out whose egg is this? When no one answeres he continues to look around. Above him he notices an empty nest in a tree. The boy says to himself this egg must belong in the nest. So he climbs the tree and puts the egg in the nest. Later on Mr. and Mrs. Bird come home to find a new egg in their nest. They dont know what to do with it. Mr. Bird says since it is in our nest it must be ours. So they take turns sitting on the egg untill it hatches. When the egg hatches out comes a baby aligator. Mrs. Bird says this baby is strange looking I dont think that he is ours. Mr. Bird says he is in our nest so he must be out baby. We will call him Jr. Jr. opens his mouth and looks hungry. So Mr. Bird says we must go out and find him some food. So for weeks they come and go bringing the baby food. Finaly the baby gets so big that he will not fit in the nest. So Mr. Bird says it is time for him to leave the nest and learn to fly. So they tell Jr. to jump off the branch and flapp his wings as hard as he can. He does this but ofcourse he can not fly so he crashes into the water below. Once in the water he feels cool and comfertable. Mrs. Bird says I think that he belongs in the water. It struck me odd how is was ok to just accept somthing like a new baby without knowing any thing aobut it. Sometimes that is how some people follow faith. They just accept things to be true because that is what seems right. Tell me what every one else thinks about this.

Today's discussion

2005-04-26T22:06:00.000-05:00

I wanted to elaborate briefly on today's discussion and get some more comments from the class on the whole issue of reincarnation with the food and angels vs. human existence. It was mentioned briefly in class that some of you thought that reincarnation was evidenced in this example given by Milton and I was not completely following the reasoning behind it, but we were moving along to something else. If anyone could provide some clarification for me on this issue that would be fabulous. If I'm understanding the whole thing correctly I got that Milton was trying to portray that eating is a spiritual process. While food starts out being a tangible item as it moves throught the body it is then transferred into a sort of ability to praise God. This turns the whole process into an intensly spiritual experience. This happens in both humans and angels. Correct me if I'm wrong on my interpretation here of both Milton and what we were trying to clarify in our class discussion today.

Work in Eden

2005-04-25T22:02:00.000-05:00

Going back to a class discussion we had last week I thought it was interesting how Milton’s portrayal of Eden is very different from the way that most people picture Eden to be in their minds. In my own mind I have always thought of Eden as the type of paradise where there were no responsibilities, where you would spend your days lounging in complete peace and serenity. However in this picture of Eden there is work, a lot of hard work.

“Man hath his daily work of body or mind
Appointed, which declares his dignity,
And the regard of Heav’n on all his ways;
While other animals unactive range,
And of their doings God takes no account.” (Paradise Lost IV, 618-622)

I think this is an interesting couple of lines because it shows how man was made in the image of God, that he both is able to work and be intellectual and this places him a step above other animals in God’s eyes. Man is able to work toward a goal and understand what he is working toward. By working in Eden he is given responsibility to look after God’s creations and this is what sets man above animals. They have no worries and do not work to care for God’s creations and world in the way that man does. His ability to think also sets him apart. The privilege of thinking and using ones mind in daily life is a privilege given to mankind and not to animals, in the same way. Man can use his mind to do Gods work and to distinguish between good and evil, and to make the choices that will keep them in Gods good graces. These lines are a good justification for the work that Adam and Eve do in Eden, in exchange for their work they are made to be above animals in both their minds and bodies.

Book V

2005-04-25T21:08:00.000-05:00

Book V is actually very interesting. Book IV and V are in realtionship to each other. Milton chose to describe Eve's dream in which temptation lead to eating their fruit. One thing that I learned from the reading is that in Book IV, an evening prayer was offered. The emphasis on this prayer was on simplicity, spontaneity, and naturalness. I also learned that when the prayer is over, the poet says " So pray'd they innocent" ( comes from line 209). After reading that, I believed that Eve was not tarnished by her dream. Milton does a wonderful job of making the reader think and actually makes one want to read more. Even though the book is complicated, going over the material in class has been benefical.

God's Omnipotence

2005-04-23T22:52:00.000-05:00

If God is indeed omnipotent, he should be able to fix the problem with Satan easily. He could just transport him back to Hell before he caused problems in Eden. So why does he allow Satan to pervert the minds of Adam and Eve?

God - or Gods?

2005-04-22T10:38:00.000-05:00

I am a little perplexed about God and Evil. I have read the debates about whether Evil came from God. In Milton, Sin and Death sprung from Satan's mind. But are these equal to Evil? I'm not sure - maybe Evil was conceived in the mind of Satan, from which sprung Sin and Death. Anyway, something that keeps recurring in my mind is a passage from Genesis which is ambiguous, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26 KJV). I am just wondering if there is something ELSE out there that could have been the source of evil - and not God himself? But God has control over Evil - at least it seems so. He allows it to come into our world, in order to redeem us from Hell. If not for Sin, humans would never have been able to enter heaven, because we would never have needed "saving" from the Garden of Eden. So then, would we have preferred to stay in Eden, or have our own fight against evil during our lifetimes, and then be granted admission into heaven if we meet the criteria of being saved? Choice and eternal life in Heaven, versus an eternal life in Eden. I'm not totally convinced that Eden and Heaven are two different things. I think they are, but would like to hear what you guys think.

Adam the Gardener

2005-04-21T11:03:00.000-05:00

Ok, so I was curious and had to see what my version of the Bible had to say about the creation of Adam. I looked at the New International Version and this is what is says in Genesis chapter 2:

When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens - and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground (verses 4-5).
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it (verse 15).
The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them ...But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God ...made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man (verses 18-22).

It does appear that Adam was placed as the caretaker for the garden as was mentioned in class and that Eve was created to help him do so. I also find it cute that it sounds like Adam looked at all the animals first to find his helper and kinda said "hey God, these don't match me. Make me a pretty lady for a helper."

God and Zeus

2005-04-20T01:25:00.000-05:00

Today in class we touched on God's rationale for allowing evil to continue in the world by encarcerating Satan that was conducive for his escape. We also briefly discussed his reasoning for allowing man to inevitably fall. I believe that God allowed these things to happen as a test of faith. He told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree. He allows Satan to tempt them to eat to see if they show their obedience and obey God's command; not only of their free will but also of their devotion to God. He uses this incident as a test, and man fails. Zeus also would perform these types of tests in the ancient world. In fact there was a story in which Hermes and Zeus traveled to a poor family's house. The husband and wife cooked their best goose and gave them lots of wine, despite the fact that they did not have much. Zeus was testing his people on the concept of xenia which he so firmly believed in, which was the relationship between guest and host. And as a result, Zeus grants them one wish. The couple wished to die at the same time and they would then become two trees that are intertwined forever symbolizing the love between the man and wife. The point being, man failed in God's test, while in this particular instance the Greeks passed (but it was not always the case the Greeks would pass such a test). Do you all see connections or agree? Or am I coming from left-field with this one?

paper

2005-04-18T16:59:00.000-05:00

I was wondering if we ever landed on the details of our last paper and if we are going to have anouther paper. If anyone could clear that up for me I would be eternaly grateful. Also if anyone needed the link for the exam date here it is.

Apologia Miltonis

2005-04-18T14:32:00.000-05:00

GREEN GIANT hast not read nor recked what I wrote of Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Free Will:

They therefore as to right belongd,
So were created, nor can justly accuse
Thir maker, or thir making, or thir Fate,
As if predestination over-rul'd
Thir will, dispos'd by absolute Decree [ 115 ]
Or high foreknowledge; they themselves decreed
Thir own revolt, not I: if I foreknew,
Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault,
Which had no less prov'd certain unforeknown.
So without least impulse or shadow of Fate, [ 120 ]
Or aught by me immutablie foreseen,
They trespass, Authors to themselves in all
Both what they judge and what they choose; for so
I formd them free, and free they must remain,
Till they enthrall themselves: I else must change [ 125 ]
Thir nature, and revoke the high Decree
Unchangeable, Eternal, which ordain'd
Thir freedom, they themselves ordain'd thir fall.
The first sort by thir own suggestion fell,
Self-tempted, self-deprav'd: Man falls deceiv'd [ 130 ]
By the other first: Man therefore shall find grace,
The other none: in Mercy and Justice both,
Through Heav'n and Earth, so shall my glorie excel,
But Mercy first and last shall brightest shine.

Nor didst thou read the Origin of Sin in Book II, and its Father Satan -- not God?

Gordian Knot

2005-04-16T17:03:00.000-05:00

How can Milton possibly provide a rational justification for God's actions in this story? Each attempt ends up making God look contradictory and bad. How so? you might ask (or not). God of Genesis is the only God, He is omnipotent, and omniscient and the creator of everything. Thus, he is the source of everything and, in the very process of creating man and woman, knows exactly what they are going to do in the future. Any evil we may wish to locate in Adam and Eve and the serpent (or any of the rebellious angels) thus has its origin in God. It was pre-destined, ergo not free will. Hence, God or part of God is the origin of evil. This is a common problem in
monotheistic religions. We surmise that "evil" exists in the world; if we believe there is only one God, the creator of everything, then He must have created that evil. How can we reconcile this with a belief that God is good. The short answer is that we cannot. We have to conclude either that God is partly evil or that the entire business is a mystery which cannot be accounted for rationally. In which case Milton has botched the story. He has (for one reason or another) made Satan and Adam and Eve much more attractive than God. He tries to counteract this effect by telling the reader repeatedly that Satan is really a bad character, but in all Satan's early speeches there is a sense of nobility and power that contradict Milton's obvious desire about how we should interpret the story. And Eve and Adam are so sympathetically presented(especially in comparison with God) that in contrast with divine justice, their conduct seems exemplary or at worst naive. In other words, far from justifying the ways of God to man, Milton's poem succeeds only in, at best, showing a paradoxical opposition of the goodness in humanity and the glory and power of God or, at worst, the tyrannical irrationality of a God who can only manifest His glory by lies, torture, and ridicule. Neither conclusion bodes well for a protestant recruitment tract. We are still quite early in the story so I look forward to seeing how Milton untangles this Gordian Knot.

Originality of Milton?

2005-04-14T11:22:00.000-05:00

In Venus' blog below it is mentioned that John Milton had considered writing his epic on King Arthur or Oliver Cromwell (thank-you Venus for the insight, it was very nicely informative). However, Milton decided against this making it seem that in this sense he was breaking away from the typical epic poem format. For those who where in class you will recall our discussion on the certain patterns seen in epics and what makes a piece truly original.

It seems to me by Milton not writing about a specific hero, such as Arthur, that he was being (in his own creative way) original. This is the first epic we have read in class that does not specifically follow the journey of one person who just happens to be a classic hero or famous author like Dante.

So the question I am proposing is this:

Is John Milton actually being creative/original by using the fall of Adam and Eve as his story line or is this just another method of following the classic epic format as seen in the previous epics we have read this semester?

Satan's rational

2005-04-12T22:11:00.000-05:00

As I was contemplating the discussion in class about why Satan's reasoning and rational was in fact irrational regarding the issue of God using his "utmost" power, my mind went to the quote on the back of my copy of Paradise Lost. It says, "Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heav'n..." I was struck by the combination of these two thoughts because I think they go hand in hand. If Satan's goal is to be the reigning leader over something (or at least not to be a servant) than he has to come up with some type of reasoning to go for it. His attempts at rationalizing his decision to turn against God are often weak, but I think it is key to understand his purpose for making the decision in the first place before we can understand his reasoning. In line 144 of book two it says, "Th' Almighty victor to spend all his rage,". This is again saying that there is a limit to an omnipotent God. If this is the case than how is he omnipotent. These are key things to think about and ponder for me at least to understand the overall picture of what is being written on.

Some good Milton Links

2005-04-12T12:35:00.000-05:00

Luminarium's Milton Page.

The Milton-L Home Page.

The Milton Reading Room (Dartmouth College).

E-text of Paradise Lost with hyperlinked commentary (from the Milton Reading Room).

Satan's tragic ironies

2005-04-12T12:09:00.000-05:00

One thing that jumps out at me as I re-read Paradise Lost this time through is the relentless irony of Satan's speech.

Tragic irony happens when a speaker utters words that have more meanings than he intends or realizes (though we realize them), and especially when those meanings are bitter or portentious for the speaker.

So when Satan rouses his troops from the infernal lake and says, "Awake, arise, or be forever fall'n" (I.330), he intends "fall'n" to mean defeated in the military sense, or perhaps "lying down" in the physical sense. But we know that the devils are "forever fall'n" in the spiritual sense, which I don't think Satan intends to say; the tension between Satan's intended meaning and our knowledge of the other meaning makes his utterance particularly poignant by playing up the futility of the Satanic enterprise.

Later, justifying his rebellion to his followers, he says,

. . . but what power of mind
Foreseeing or presaging, from the depth
Of knowledge past or present, could have feared,
How such united force of gods, how such
As stood like these, could ever know repulse?
(I.626-30)

He's trying to say, "who could have foreseen that we'd lose"? But of course God foresaw it, and he himself could have done so had he wished to. The fact that he still declares the result of the first battle unforseeable highlights his tragic blindness for us.

I picked these examples almost at random; tragic irony is everywhere in Satan's speech and actions.

Intro to Milton

2005-04-10T15:23:00.000-05:00

After having read the introduction to Paradise Lost as well as some information about John Milton online, I thought I would relate some interesting things I learned about how the epic came about. By the age of sixteen, Milton already had it in his head that he was going to be the one to write an epic for his country, England. I find it fascinating that he had such big aspirations at such a young age. By the age of 16 my only aspirations were to get a nice car and to go to college somewhere when I graduated from high school. Milton had read the epics by Homer and Virgil, and was excited about bringing that type of brilliance to the English language as Homer and Virgil had brought to their countries. I also thought that it was interesting that originally Milton had entertained the idea of having his epic about King Arthur and then Oliver Cromwell. Epics about either of these men would have not been lacking for good battle scenes or the strong warrior types that are typically depicted in epic poetry. Milton eventually got away from these ideas for epics and ended up considering the story of Adam and Eve and the fall the man to be a possibly successful story for the epic he wanted to create. Milton began working on Paradise Lost in 1656, at which point he was already completely blind. He would dictate what he wanted his daughters to write down and they would write for him. I also found Milton's blindness to be interesting. To be able to write an epic like Paradise Lost, that has endured as a very important piece of literature, without even being able to look at it and see the finished product or see what you have been able to create is amazing. Milton had already had what people would call a successful career before losing his sight. He had written a number of political pamphlets, and he had served as secretary of foreign languages in Oliver Cromwell's government. Instead of retiring when he went blind, he turned out his best work ever. Enjoy reading!

Political Motifs in the Inferno

2005-04-07T21:34:00.000-05:00

Dante constructs the Inferno because of the utter chaos and corruption he sees in Florence. He puts various government officials, clergymen, and lay people for various sins they have committed. Dante even puts people down there who have not died, but, according to Dante, will surely be there when Atropas cuts the thread on their life. Dante also stresses the important doctrine of the two swords of power. This is a prominent debate that Pope Gelasius (pope 492-496) started when he said that church and state should be separate entities. Dante argues these two powers should be separate but equal powers on Earth. The punishment for betraying either the church or state are punishable in Hell, as we see in the last level. As we saw treachery of the state or of religion will guarantee a first-class ticket to Hell. The big picture is Dante constructs Hell in which a person is punished based on their worst sin. They descend in order starting with the least serious and progressing to the harshest and coldest sin; betrayal of one's country, religion, or kin.

Mahomet

2005-04-07T06:52:00.000-05:00

The relationship of Judaism, Christianity and Islam seems to have always been an issue. In Dante's time the split between the Christian church and Mahommet was relatively recent. In addition to this they did not view a "separation" between government and religion as we do today, their religion was fundamental in governing everyday life. This made the split even more dear to them, and harder to take. I have always seen the relationship between the Jewish people and Christians as one of parent/child. I was raised as a Christian and have the utmost respect for people of Jewish faith. I never thought much about Muslims until the recent attention focused on that faith due to the radical arm being associated with Terrorism and 9/11. In my limited understanding of how both of our faiths sprung from Judaism, and extending my understanding of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, I can only see Islam as a sister religion with Christianity. We all seem to believe in the same God, and to me the differences all seem like technicalities. I know each religion considers their particular customs to be all-important, but when I look at the big picture we all want the same thing - to get to heaven ourselves. Understanding a religion like Islam seems easier to me than understnading the worship of the Greek Gods, which do not seem like they are related to the God of Christianity at all. What do you guys think?

Frozen?

2005-04-06T18:05:00.000-05:00

In the final Canto of Inferno we find those who betrayed their master and benefactors including: Brutus, Cassius, Judas, and Lucifer. Their punishment is being completely frozen in ice. For being at the very bottom of Hell they seem to get a much less harsh punishment than I would think they would get. We discussed in class how the punishment should connect with their crime but I don't see the connection. Why is this their punishment and is it somehow connected to their crime?

Alchemy????

2005-04-06T12:30:00.000-05:00

I am a little confused about Canto XXIX. We briefly talked about this in class, but not enough because of time. Here they are in the 10th Bolgia. This is where the sinners are being punished for practicing Alchemy. In this Canto, we are introduced to a sinner that was burnt to death. The reason he was burnt is because he had promised that he would show another guy how to fly and he didn't, so the other guy got mad and had him burnt. We would think that he would go to Hell for fraud, but he says that he is in there for Alchemy. I am not sure that I understand what Alchemy is. I thought of Alchemy to be the changing of normal metals to gold...but I don't see how it would apply to what the sinner says. Is there another definition of Alchemy????

Dante's Revenge?

2005-04-04T15:35:00.000-05:00

In Canto 32 Dante displays a savagery that we have not seen yet against a Florentine traitor named Bocca. He was a traitor, who must have been a Guelph but betrayed them to aid the Ghibellines, and led to a major defeat of the Guelphs by the Ghibellines at the Battle of Montaperti (as described in the endnotes). I made an inference from the various notes that Bocca was a Guelph who betrayed them to assist the Ghibellines. I believe this is the reason that Dante shows no mercy for Bocca, and, in fact, detests him. Most of the people Dante has seen have not affected his family history on such a personal level. But I believe that since Bocca betrayed his people, which are the descendants of Dante's family, Dante wants to exact some type of retribution of his own on him. He does this by pulling out his hair. Do you all think that Dante does this to Bocca because he is a traitor in general, and in turn would do this to any other traitor; or do you think Dante acts the way he does because Bocca betrayed Dante's people?

Spelunking Sinners

2005-04-03T21:19:00.000-05:00

Some have likened Dante's Inferno to a Tower of Babel built downward. Others say its structure mirrors medieval cathedrals. The underground he has imagined is dark and frightening but it also reflects prevailing views of where danger and despair lies. Not only the Greeks but many other cultures have placed the Land of the Dead under the ground, usually for purposes of punishment. And we continue to plant our corpses there as if they were root stock. Why is the metaphor of the underground so powerful for us as humans. This fear of foreboding caves seems strange to me because early man used them for shelter. This negative connotation of the underground is also unusual in light of the fact that the very life (food) that sustains us comes from the earth. And finally, anyone who has had the good fortune to tour a cave can see how beautiful they are.

Soul was tricked

2005-03-30T23:13:00.000-05:00

I have something to say about the Canto 27. I think that Hell is a place for people who did wrong, but in Canto 27, I don’t agree with one of the souls that is put in. Dante talks to this soul. The soul became a monk after his repent for being a soldier. As a soldier, he was really clever. He committed fraud perfectly. Due to this, the Pope asked him to develop a strategy to defeat his enemies. The soul didn't want to, but he accepted only because the pope told him that he would guarantee him a place in Heaven. The soul told him the strategy was to tell lies to his enemies to gain power. This worked for the pope and he got what he wanted. After the soul's death, he was placed in Hell. He didn't know why, but he was told that forgiveness is only granted after repentance. Basically he is saying that if someone repents something and still commits it, then he/she is not truly repent. I do agree with this, but I think that the soul really regret what he did. He should have gone to Heaven. The pope is the one that tricked him and the soul should not be punished for being tricked. This is what I think, but I can see the argument that took him to Hell.

The Name Game

2005-03-29T23:47:00.000-05:00

Going back to the discussion we had in class I think it is somewhat unethical for Dante to be naming specific individuals he “sees” along his journey through hell. By placing these certain well known figures of the time in hell he is really calling them out for the behavior they engaged in while they are or where alive. It is one thing for him to judge and condemn a certain action or behavior or even profession, but it is much more bold to condemn a person to hell for eternity for what they have done or for a basic character flaw that they may possess. This is especially true for the people who are still alive when Dante wrote this poem, he was basically saying they are doomed if they continue down their current path of what will end up to be self-destruction. This could be looked at as Dante offering them a warning and a chance at salvation if they choose to change their ways. He is saying that what they are doing now is wrong but they still have a chance to redeem themselves and give them hope for where they will spend their eternity. His naming of individuals in Hell can also be looked at as him giving warning to people and society as a whole. Because many of the condemned are well known figures, people will be able to guide their actions as to not commit these sins and be doomed to the same torture that they read about. It can be seen as an attempt to scare them straight, especially when reading the brutal descriptions he has for the punishment of many of the sins. While I feel it is unethical for Dante to name individuals his intentions may have been more honorable than just simply making some kind of political statement.

Dante Speaks

2005-03-29T22:35:00.000-05:00

I apologize in advance to those who hate long blogs but I need the word count...One of the things I've noticed so far in our sojourn through Hell is Dante's use of speech to move his story along. Man needs speech because it is an effective way to communicate with his fellow beings; animals, who operate on instinct, and angels, who have direct perception, do not need it. Only man has thoughts that his fellow man cannot perceive except through his words. The positive function of speech as a civilizing, educational, and unifying force among people has a strong Roman and medieval tradition: note the time period this poem was written. (For students of the Scholastic way rhetorical skills were prized.) There is a powerful negative tradition as well. Dante takes a dark tone in the Inferno before flipping it to the positive in Purgatory and Paradise. The Bible points out the dangers of speech, as do church fathers like Gregory and Augustine, for whom the highest form of speech is the "rhetoric of silence".
In Hell, Dante reveals these dangers: the misuse of speech in order to deceive others, the lack of control over speech that leads men to betray themselves, and the total breakdown in
communication because the source of language, reason, has cut itself off from God, and cannot therefore function properly. Speech in Hell is deceptive and divisive, an antisocial force. In order
to convey the sense of this realm, Dante moves towards a new language, creating new words,
combining contradictory images, treating separate languages as one, playing with sounds and repetition of words to suggest meanings not contained in the syntactical structure. But instead of creating confusion, he brings about a deeper understanding of the world we are moving through.
The souls of Paradise may be beyond the negative powers of speech, but the souls of Hell are prey to all of them. They are harassed by noises, laments, cries, howling, barking, all expressing pain or hostility, however incoherently. Some of the souls are impeded in their speech by their shapes (the tree-suicides and serpent-thieves), some are submerged in rivers, pitch or blood and gurgle their words. Many of the guardians (demons) of Hell do not speak; instead they twist their tails or blow horns, bark or shout gibberish, all apparently in parody of the angelic ability to communicate directly without words. When the souls speak, they curse God, their families, anything they can blame for their situation, or they defy God. They attack each other verbally (the misers and prodigals, the wrathful, usurers, falsifiers, and traitors) and Dante as well (in the prophecies of Farinata and Vanni Fucci). I also noticed the lack of music in Hell but that is another blog...

the truth

2005-03-28T20:55:00.000-05:00

“What’s true is true no matter where it comes from” was a statement that was made in class last week. But how do you know what truth is? I believe the Bible is the absolute Truth. I have always been taught to compare information to the Truth and if it coincides, then it must be the Truth, but if it conflicts, then it must not be valid. I do not feel that Dante is wrong in studying other writings and philosophies. I went to a Christian high school, and at that school, they made sure that they taught the students about evolution. Many people could not believe that a Christian school would teach their students about evolution. The school board’s answer to the parent’s concerns was that it was foolish to send students to college and expect them to defend creation when they are ignorant about evolution. The point is this – studying something does not mean that you believe it or accept it as truth. I don’t have an explanation for why Dante uses characters such as Cerberus. But then again, if I were to write an epic I might include Red Riding Hood and the Three Little Pigs, and I don’t think that would make me any less of a Christian.

Sin and Punishment

2005-03-28T17:06:00.000-05:00

Over the course of reading Dante’s Inferno, so far, the theme that I have been most interested in is the idea of divine justice. This is what Dante begins to understand during his encounters throughout his tour of hell. By Divine Justice I mean that basically “the punishment fits the crime”. The severity of someone’s crime or sin during their life directly reflects the severity of the punishment they receive for eternity.
Hell was created to punish those who sinned, for eternity after their death. It was made to be divine by god, in the way that the punishments are suitable to whatever basic virtue the sin violates.
As Dante’s journey through hell progresses so do the nature of the punishments corresponding with the nature of the sins. The souls, which he encounters in the beginning, are not being punished as severely as those he sees later on. This correspondence between sin and punishment can also be seen looking at the physical design of hell, the way that it is arranged. The deeper into hell Dante goes the worse are the sins and the punishments.
Going along with this balance, I enjoyed being able to try and figure out the significance of the different punishments and how they mirrored the sins committed during life.
One punishment I found particularly interesting was the one that was given to those who had committed suicide. These souls were turned into trees, which can be interpreted in many different ways. For me, I thought of it in the way that being trapped in a tree is much the same as being trapped in a body. A feeling of being trapped could have been the motivation for the sin. Because these sinners violated the very virtue and gift of life they are given plenty of time, eternity in fact, to ponder what they did.

Greyon

2005-03-28T12:49:00.000-05:00

Ok, I wanted to talk about the creature that takes Dante and Virgil to the seventh Circle. I thought that it was great how Dante described him in the book. He represents FRAUD. Greyon has an honest human looking face. That is the only part that he has that is human-like. The rest of his body would look like a snake, but he has claws and hairy limbs. He is different shades. At the end of his snakelike figure, is a forked tail like a scorpion, which he tries to keep hidden. The honest face is so that he can make his victims believe him and consider him an honest guy. He tries to keep his poisonous tail hidden at all times so that his victims won't be able to see that he is really a bad guy and when they least expect it, he will "sting" them.

Thou shalt not judge...

2005-03-28T12:14:00.000-05:00

It seems to me that Dante has condemned a fair amount of people to endless suffering in the name of God. I have been bothered by this element of the journey from the start, and I continue to be. The damnation of generic sinners is one thing, but to call out individuals by name is going to far. How can any Dante, or any person, believe that he or she can predict the final outcome of God's judgement? How can Dante feel so confident? I have always thought of Christianity as being forgiving toward lost sinners. That is, the sum of one's whole life will determine their final destination. If a person has made mistakes in life, God's forgiveness is possible through honest change and remorse. In order to pass judgment on a man, you must know everything about them. You must know all of their actions and thoughts everyday of their lives. This is an impossible feat for anyone except God who sees all. Personally, I feel the inclusion of names to be unfair. He could have illustrated the sins of man in terms of fictional characters that would still be relative to his readers. Unless Dante really did journey to the Underworld and saw these men for himself, I would be worried if I were him for casting blind judgment in the name of God, without God's all-seeing knowledge.

On the same note, I wish Dante would discuss those who sin but are not "sinners". There are a whole lot of people (the majority) who live good lives, but give into temptation in moments of weakness. I believe that some mistakes that are made serve only to bring one closer to the light. Learning from mistakes are a basic part of human development and understanding. For instance, how do you know not to touch things that are hot unless you've been burned before? We get little sense of whether or not these sinners were habitual offenders, or just occasional ones. Things seem a bit too black and white for me in Dante's colorful construction of Hell...

Beggars victims or not?

2005-03-28T11:27:00.000-05:00

I was thinking about Dante while driving down the road the other day. I stopped at a red light on High Pt. Rd. and there on the corner was a homeless man with a sign that read: Down on my luck, please help me. I had just come from church and my first thought was to roll down my window and give the man some money. I don’t do this very often. I am caught in the trap of are they really down on their luck or are they just being lazy and is this money going to be used for alcohol. Does it really matter what he does with the money? This is when I thought I wonder where Dante would put this man? I think that just as I initially did that Dante would feel sorry for the man. But I also think that Dante would place this man in hell because this man is not providing any service for the money that he is given. The only act that is performed by this man is the act of asking for the money. I am not in the opinion that this man or any other person should go to hell because they beg for money or food but I think that Dante may put them there. I was reminded of a homeless man in Atlanta that stands near the Marta station (public transportation). He holds a sign that reads: “Why lie, I need money for alcohol.” I have personally seen friends give money to the man saying at least he is honest. I don’t know why it matters to us so much what the money is spent on but it does for some reason. My question is what does every one else think Dante’s stance on this issue might be?

The punishment of Caiaphas

2005-03-27T17:14:00.000-05:00

In Canto XXIII, Virgil and Dante narrowly escape the demons that are chasing them by sliding down into the Sixth Bolgia, where the demons are not able to follow them. There, Virgil and Dante find the hypocrites, whose punishment is to walk around in heavy leaden robes forever. I thought that Dante's punishment for Caiaphas, high priest of the Jews, was very interesting in this Canto. Virgil and Dante find Caiaphas crucified on the floor by three stakes with all the rest of the hypocrites walking over him in their heavy robes. Up to this point I personally have not agreed with some of the punishments Dante imposed on sinners, like for instance fortune-tellers have to walk around for eternity with their heads on backwards so that they cannot see in front of themselves, but the punishment of Caiaphas is an exception. Caiaphas's being crucified is symbolic of the crucifixion of Christ; since he called for the crucifixion of Christ, his punishment was to be crucified in Hell. Also symbolic is the way Dante has Caiaphas bearing the weight of the rest of the hypocrites walking over him, like Christ beared the weight of everyone's sins. I'm interested to find out what you all think. Do you think that this was an appropriate punishment for Caiaphas? If not, why not? Dante's use of symbolism and the ironic punishments that he has for the different sins are my favorite part of reading the Inferno up to this point because they are very creative.

Discussion leaders for Tuesday, April 1

2005-03-24T12:20:00.000-05:00

Jack Callahan and Brandon Persia will be leading the discussion of Inferno, Cantos 21-25 on Tuesday, March 29th.

On Thursday, March 31st, Carter Cassedy and Lain Kimmel will lead discussion of Cantos 26-29.

On Tuesday, April 5th, Chris Cockman and Alisha Leak will lead discussion on Cantos 30-33.

Papers are due on Thursday, April 7th.

The Wheel of Fortune

2005-03-23T22:08:00.000-05:00

In class we have discussed how Dante could incorporate classical pagan elements into what is supposed to be a Christian poem about the Christian view of the afterlife. While I am thoroughly convinced that Dante was not doing anything wrong by incorporating pagan myths and characters, after rethinking his explanation of the distribution of wealth based upon Fortune’s ever-revolving wheel, I can’t help but wonder if he actually crossed the line this time.

I say this because the book of Proverbs is full of counsel concerning the general lifestyles of the diligent and the slothful, and Proverbs is very clear that diligence tends to lead to prosperity (at least to the degree that the diligent person won’t starve to death) and slothfulness tends to lead toward poverty. For example, Prov 10:4, “Poor is he who works with a negligent hand, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.” Prov. 14: 23, “In labor there is profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.” Prov. 20:4, “The sluggard does not plow after the autumn, so he begs during the harvest and has nothing.” Do these examples not seem to suggest that Dante’s explanation of the distribution of wealth are somewhat at odds with standard Christian teaching?

Of course, he could be emphasizing the supreme power of God to direct the affairs of men, but even so there does seem to be some connection between God’s blessing and hard work.

Possible paper topics

2005-03-23T15:30:00.000-05:00

(1) At the end of the Odyssey, Odysseus kills all the suitors, tortures and kills Melanthios, and hangs the maids who helped the suitors. To what extent are these their just punishments? Be sure to support your arguments with specific references to the text, and with a clear explanation of what it is that makes the punishments just or unjust. You will need as well to be able to explain the difference between justice and injustice.

(2) Dante aims at providing a universal scheme of sin and punishment in the Inferno and Purgatorio. Is there any kind of sin (ancient or modern) that he leaves out? If your answer is "yes," describe the nature of the sin and fit it into Dante's scheme of sins and punishments in a way that shows your understanding of Dante's moral universe. Provide a description of the appropriate punishment for the sin you've identified, and one or more paradigmatic sinners to stand as examples of this kind of sin

February blog posts

2005-03-23T14:39:00.000-05:00

I have looked through the blog postings for February, and came up with the following word counts for postings and comments:

greengiant: 585
delinda: 809
sjellen: 606
southernagrarian: 795
shinigami: 304
hades: 215
aphrodite: 621
romanpietas: 1044
prettyinpink: 523
designnymph: 534
iris: 963
athena: 188
vgarella: 621
achilles: 156
venus: 1026
kronos: 443
oraia: 77
leelee: 119
ingens_pelides: 0
hephaistos: 0
panda_stirfry: 0
achilles: 0
cleopatra: 0
potnia: 0
courtney: 0

You have been directed to contribute 300 words per week; so far, no one is meeting that goal, and only a couple of you are even close to it.

The quality of postings, however, is quite good. You all just need to post more, or your grades will suffer proportionately. For example, the highest writing grade I can assign in February is 87%, because the person with the most postings only contributed 87% of the assigned amount.

Aristotelian Influence

2005-03-23T11:13:00.000-05:00

As we discussed in class, Dante incorporates pagan influences into The Inferno such as the philosophical ideas of Aristotle. Why? I found an interesting webpage that discusses the conflicting views of philosophy of this time period and it shed some light on the subject for me. If anyone is interested:
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761574677___18/Philosophy.html
It seems that during the time Dante is writing many philosophers and religious figures are debating how to reconcile philosophy with religious faith. Were there two separate truths or just one that encompassed both the products of reason and the products of faith? This is still a question that we struggle with today. I think Dante was incorporating elements of pagan beliefs and including the Virtuous Pagans and the first circle of Limbo in order to help explain this connection between faith and reason. To help people of the day reconcile for themselves how these two ideas could come together. Instead of a complex philosophical treatise, Dante's story of his journey through Hell helps people get an image in their minds of how this union might exist.

Circle 6 Question

2005-03-19T12:43:00.000-05:00

We did not get to this in class, but I have a question. Throughout the story, we read that as Dante and Virgil continue on their trip, they are always turning left. At the very end of Canto 9, we encounter a different situation. Virgil and Dante turn right for the first time. What could Dante be trying to get us to see? Why did he change from always going left to go right this time? I have tried to find a reason, but I can't seem to think of anything.

Use of Symbols In Circle 3

2005-03-19T12:31:00.000-05:00

As I was reading about the third circle, I found it interesting as to how Dante uses symbols to express THE GLUTTONS.

1. The first thing is the heavy rain along with the sleet. The gluttons like everything in excess, so they are recieving rain so hard that it deforms them.
2. The second thing is Cerberus howling. The gluttons like everthing in excess, so they get to hear the hard howling so much that they can't stand it anymore. It hurts their ears.
3. The third thing is how Cerberus eats the mud when Virgil throws it at him. This is a symbol that gluttons will eat anything because they just want it all.

Florence

2005-03-18T20:58:00.000-05:00

Here's a photo I took last summer of Florence, Italy -- Dante's home city. You can see why he loved it so much.

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Vindictiveness

2005-03-16T14:14:00.000-05:00

I was very interested by our brief discussion of Dante's politics in the Inferno, specifically that he places people in hell who were still living when he was writing. I admit that I was initially turned off by this politicizing, but then while driving to work after class I remembered one of my favorite poems by one of my favorite poets:

"Come you masters of war/You that build all the guns/You that build the death planes/You that build the big bombs/You that hide behind walls/You that hide behind desks/I just want you to know/I can see through your masks...

"Like Judas of old/You lie and deceive/A world war can be won/You want me to believe/But I see through your eyes/And I see through your brain/Like I see through the water/That runs down my drain...

"How much do I know/To talk out of turn/You might say that I'm young/You might say I'm unlearned/But there's one thing I know/Though I'm younger than you/Even Jesus would neverForgive what you do

"Let me ask you one question/Is your money that good/Will it buy you forgiveness/Do you think that it could/I think you will find/When your death takes its toll/All the money you made/Will never buy back your soul

"And I hope that you die/And your death'll come soon/I will follow your casket/In the pale afternoon/And I'll watch while you're lowered/Down to your deathbed/And I'll stand o'er your grave/'Til I'm sure that you're dead"

["Masters of War" from The FreeWheelin' Bob Dylan, 1963]

I am sorry for quoting so much from that song but there is so much relevant to our class discussion. By the way, let it be noted that 1) Dylan was singing about ANYONE who facilitated or profited from war; 2) I am mentioning this completely outside of the context of the situation in Iraq, so let's not be sidetracked by that.

Since I have already written this much, I'll mention my most important question: Is it not possible and even necessary to harshly criticize some people? It is not difficult to sympathize with the righteous anger to which Dylan was giving voice. Wasn't Dante doing the same thing? Is Dylan's message any less important or powerful just because he was taking a political stance? Is Dante's message then any less important or invalid jsut because it was political?

Dante's Hell

2005-03-15T11:25:00.000-05:00

I found a site for a test to see what your fate is in Dante's hell.
Going back to today's discussion. It is interesting the level at which we decide something to be a sin. Some sins are worse that others and therefore the punishment is worse. In our society adultery is considered a bad thing but it is not considered the worst offense. If someone is convicted of adultery they are not usually sent to jail for that offense. They usually pay retribution to the wronged party and that is it. Jail time and or death are not given to this type of crime because it is a victim less crime in a way. It does hurt the spouse but the hurt is emotional and not necessarily bodily. Causing bodily harm to another person in many ways seems to be the determining factor as to what gets jail time or not.

The First Circle of Hell

2005-03-05T22:31:00.000-05:00

Hey Guys. I just got done reading Canto IV and I thought I would post on what I thought of it. I found the reading on the state of being in limbo to be very interesting. I myself believe that there is a heaven and hell, and when I think of heaven I think of pearly gates, angels, etc. But when it comes to how I envision hell, I realized that I have never really given it any thought before. The lines that peaked my interest are : "I wish you to know before you travel on that these were sinless. And still their merits fail, for they lacked Baptism's grace, which is the door of the true faith you were born to (Lines 33-36)." I believe in God, but have never been baptized. The idea of limbo really bothers me because I hate to think that such a place exists. I do not think that it would be right to decide that the only thing keeping a person out of hell is being baptized. Especially if someone lived the life of a saint while on Earth, contributing much to mankind, and ending up in limbo anyway just because they weren't baptized. On a personal note, my father is a Christian, and my mother is from India and practices Sikhism. When I was younger I attended a private Baptist school until sixth grade. I remember going home crying one day to my mom, telling her that she was going to hell because she was not Christian. Thinking back on that now, I think the idea of people going to hell, or being in limbo, because they have different beliefs or aren't baptized is just wrong. What do you all think? A second thing that bothered me in this Canto are the lines: "The signature of honor they left on earth is recognized in Heaven and wins them ease in Hell out of God's favor (Lines 76-78)." Why ease their suffering in Hell if they aren't good enough to get into Heaven? That's like really crappy consolation for the good they did on Earth.

The Divine Comedy

2005-02-26T00:10:00.000-05:00

I thought that I would introduce the new reading that we are starting on next week because when I was reading the posts recent posts on the afterlife and responding to it myself I thought about how this is what Dante was writing about. For this reason I thought I would just introduce a new thought from the reading on Canto. My attention was immediately caught even in the introduction of Canto I. I specifically liked the part that was talking about how Virgil (who is Dante's symbol of human reason) was what offered Dante such hope. I found it intensely interesting, however, that human reason is what offered him hope, but that Virgil said that human reason itself is "self-limited." He goes on to say that Divine love must take over where human reason leaves off. I wanted to introduce the topic though of human reason. What do you all think about the idea of human reason being limited? If you think it is limited than why? If not...why not? If you think it is limited than what takes over in its place when it has gone as far as is allowed? If you think that it is limited, do you live like it is the answer to everything, or do you acknowledge the taking over of reason by something else in your daily actions? Feel free to answer all, some or none of the questions I've posed. I find this topic intensely interesting, but I'm not at all trying to grill anyone.

Heaven and Hell

2005-02-24T12:45:00.000-05:00

In class we went over all the parts of the underworld in the three epics that we have read so far. I heard alot of different thoughts about Heaven and Hell. I just wanted to hear more from other people in class and I know that some people in the class just don't like to speak up in class and I was wondering what everyone thinks about the after life. I don't want people to fight about what is right or wrong about the after life and I don't want this to turn into a biblical post. I just want to hear your thoughts about what you think is after life compared to the interpretations that we have read.

Loyalty and Love

2005-02-22T23:32:00.000-05:00

A couple lines that really caught my attention in Book VI of The Aeneid are lines 921-922 – “Have you at last come, has that loyalty Your father counted on conquered the journey?” I am sure we have all heard that love conquers all; yet, in this line, it was loyalty that conquered this journey to the underworld. This makes me wonder if love and loyalty can be separated. Can you love someone or something and not be loyal to them or it? Can you be loyal to something and not love it?

Aeneas' Departure

2005-02-21T23:05:00.000-05:00

After Aeneas has his tour through the Underworld with the Sibyl, he exits through the gate of false dreams. Why is it that he exits through this gate instead of the other gate. What is Virgil trying to say by this?

Women in the ancient world

2005-02-21T15:37:00.000-05:00

There's a good conversation about Homeric women going on here, so I thought you all might be interested in Diotima, a website devoted to women in the ancient world. Here's a more specific link to a lecture outline on Homeric women -- it will give you more food for thought than answers, though.

Coming of Age for Telemachos???

2005-02-21T13:38:00.000-05:00

Do you think the way Telemachos talks and deals with the suitors in the last five books or so, is because he has become more confident in himself and realizes his place in his house becoming the "man of the house," or because he knows his father is home and is plotting the brutal downfall of the suitors? You do not see Telemachos talking to the suitors as he does later in the epic. Early in Book 1 he tells them to stop eating all of his food and taking all of his livestock, but it is not in the same tone that i perceive he is using in Book 19 and 20 when talking with the suitors. He never makes a physical threat to the suitors in the early books. By this i mean he never says things like, "i will kill you" or "we will fight." In Book 20, lines 302-310, he makes a direct threat to Ktesippos when he threw an ox hoof at Odysseus, he states, "I would have struck you with my spear, and your father would have to arrange your funeral." Also in Book 20, line 267, Telemachos tells the suitors "there will be a quarrel and FIGHT BETWEEN US!" One man saying this to a room full of men who want to kill him and rule his house and kingdom is a risky endeavor. I do not think Telemachos would have acted the way he does in the later books if he did not know Odysseus was already home. He showed no signs of physically wanting to engage the suitors, to their face such as in this instance, early in the epic.

Treatment of Guests

2005-02-18T12:31:00.000-05:00

Hey guys,

I wanted to comment on something that I really like about this epic poem. What really grabs my attention is the way that guests are treated. There are many examples of the treatment of guests throughout the epic.

SOME GOOD OCCATIONS ARE::

The suitors are guests in Odysseus's house. They have outstayed their visit, but Telemachus cannot kick them out, and has to treat them more or less kindly.
When Telemachus goes looking for information about his father, Nestor offers him food, a bath, and housing. Also, the greatest thing is that he lets him borrow some horses and his son as a companion. Menelaus offers him fine wines when he leaves.
The swineherd is a poor person that doesn’t have a lot, but he shares everything evenly with Odysseus (disguised as a beggar).

SOME BAD OCCATIONS ARE::

When Odysseus and his men enter the cave of Cyclopes, they are expected to be treated nicely because they are the guests. This does not turn out like this. Instead of treating them likes guests, he eats them and tells them that he is not afraid of Zeus.
Part of the reason that the people are mad at Odysseus is because he killed the suitors in his house. This would mean that he has violated the guest “laws” of Zeus.

I would consider myself to be like this with guests, but not to the extent of giving them expensive things. I am from a small village in Mexico, and this could explain why I think like this. When I was living in Mexico, I remember that it was strange to see a stranger because of the region where we are located, but when we saw one, my parents would always be eager to meet the stranger and on many occasions invited them to our humble house to eat and spend the night. Even though I have been raised like this, I believe that times are changing, and it is harder to invite strangers over to your house because of what we see on the news. Also, a big factor is if you live in a big city or in a small village. I think that guests never be treated like they were in The Odyssey as they may have been in the past. On the contrary, it is sad, but many people don’t even know their neighbors.

Women and Homer

2005-02-17T19:48:00.000-05:00

I was wondering where most of you stand on womens role in this world of the Odyssey. It is my opinnion that while woman on the surface seem to play a subserviant role they have a moreinfluential role than what is first portrayed. Although Odysseus is the hero of our story it is because of Athene that he is able to accomplish much of what he does. Penolope may not be able to govern by herself but she does have the power to choose a suitor and she shows how smart she is by the way that she holds the suitors off. I see women in Greek culture as the strength behind the power. A line that I love from "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" is "a man man be the head of the house but a woman is the neck and the neck may turn the head any way she wants." It may be a little simplified but I think that women had a role in society that was a lot bigger then even they may have realized.

Derivatives and a Sequel to The Odyssey

2005-02-16T22:38:00.000-05:00

We talked about the movies "Star Wars" and "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" in class. But what about the tales of Sinbad in "One Thousand and One Nights" or "Ulysses"?

While searching online I found "The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel" a 33,000 line poem by the poet Nikos Kazantzakis.

Pretending Again??

2005-02-16T19:09:00.000-05:00

In book 24 Odysseus travels to his father's farm to visit him and he sends all of the servants into the house so that he can be alone with his father, Laertes, in the garden. He sees that his father has aged prematurely because he has been grieving for his wife and son. Laertes does not recognize Odysseus and Odysseus does not reveal himself. WHY NOT?!?! Instead he pretends to be a friend of Odysseus' . I think that Odysseus has pretended enough!! I mean, he sees that his father has gotten old and he probably looks like he is about to die. He misses his son and wife enough already, does Odysseus really have to 'play' with his own father like he did everyone else? When Laertes begins crying at the memory of his son that is when Odysseus finally reveals himself to his father. I wonder if he hadn't started crying would Odysseus have told him who he was?? I'm sure he would have eventually told him, but what would it have taken for him to tell Laertes? I'm sure we have all heard of old people dying of shock (maybe its just a myth.....I don't know, but I know I've heard of it before), Laertes could have had a heart attack and died, when Odysseus finally revealed himself to his father, then he would have been just like the dog. I just don't know why Odysseus chose to keep his identity secret one last time with his father, I think he should have just come out and told him who he was......what do you guys think???

Violation of Themis

2005-02-14T21:10:00.000-05:00

I think a violation of Themis occurred when Antinoos struck Odysseus with the footstool. In my own words, Odysseus says that fighting for your possessions is nothing to be sorry for, but Antinoos has hit him (Odysseus) for simply being hungry (Book 17 line 470). What do you guys think? Am I correct in my interpretation of this passage?

Where does Odysseus' newfound patience come from?

2005-02-13T17:31:00.000-05:00

It seems to me that throughout the first half of the story, Odysseus was quick to boast and make sure everyone knew who he was and how great he was, but towards the end of the story suddenly he is able to keep his mouth shut (and not let his wife or the suitors know his true identity). For example, Odysseus couldn't keep his mouth shut not once, but twice when he and his companions were trying to leave the land of the cyclopes without getting killed. He just had to tell Polyphemos his real name, instead of just letting him think his name was really Nobody and not further endangering himself and his companions. But after reading Chapters XVII through XX, I am kind of curious as to why Odysseus's character now has the willpower to keep from revealing himself. All those times he cried and cried with his companions, either over men that died or about not being able to get home, but now when he is face to face with Penelope, finally getting to see her and talk to her after so long, albeit in disguise, now he is able to watch her agonize over him and keep his composure. Personally, I think if I had to sit and watch a loved one cry because they think they lost me, I wouldn't be able to keep from consoling them, revealing my true identity, or crying myself. Why do you all think that the story was told in this way? Is Homer just keeping Odysseus' character from revealing himself because it adds suspense to the story? This is one of my favorite parts of the story because I know if I had been writing the story I would have just had Odysseus come home and reveal himself immediately and have a happy reunion with his wife and son. But the way Homer keeps Odysseus's identity a secret is much better and keeps people interested in the rest of the story. The way that Odyssues is able to keep his identity hidden even when he's getting stools thrown at him by suitors in his own house just strikes me as being out of character for him.

Blog advice

2005-02-10T14:55:00.000-05:00

I notice that some of you are dutifully posting your 300 words in one big chunk.

That's fine, but it's not optimal.

Blogs are good because they're interactive, and it's hard for others to respond to a 300-word posting, because there's just too much there.

For example, I liked Iris's post about Odysseus as coward, but which of her points should I comment on?

So you might try experimenting wth posting a few, shorter ideas over the course of the week. It will invite more responses.

By the way, bloggers tend to rate themselves by the number of comments they get on their posts. If you get lots of comments, you said something interesting (or provocative).

Portrayal of a Coward

2005-02-09T21:14:00.000-05:00

In Book XIV Odysseus spins a false tale of who he is to Eumaios . We were discussing what aspects of this tale might contain some truth about Odysseus. When I read this chapter again I am struck by the contrast between the man Odysseus claims to be in this tale and who he really is. In his tale he claims to have fought at Troy and gotten home with no problems, only to choose to leave his family again for adventure. The real Odysseus longs to be home with Penelope suffering greatly through his adventures; We get the sense that he would not easily choose to leave again after such a long struggle to get home. Even if he had gotten home quickly I don't think he would have chosen to leave again so lightly. Odysseus also tells Eumaios that he was a brave and fierce warrior planning and sending men into battles at Troy, but then we see that his own expedition to Egypt went quickly awry under his leadership. He was tricked by a Phoenician man who "by his wits talked me over" (p. 217). Even while the man was planning to sell him into slavery he says "I suspected all" (p. 218), but did nothing to save himself. This whole tale is completely opposite of how the real Odysseus would have behaved. Odysseus is always crafty and watchful. He would never have allowed himself to be tricked by anyone. As for portrying hiself as a corageous warrior - A truly corageous man would never say so about himself; that is for others to judge. Also from the reading I recall someone saying that for a man to be respectable he had to settle down with a wife - and in reality Odysseus is such a man, detained from his homecoming against his will, rather that leaving them on a whim. I see the person in the tale as opposite in character from Odysseus. Although there are details of events that are similar to Odysseus' true experiences the way in which he claims to have handled those events is in contrast to the way Odysseus would have acted.

Checking Post

2005-02-08T23:00:00.000-05:00

I just want see if everything worked. Lately, the class discussions have been interesting. I am glad that we are taking the Odyssey slower. Now, I am understanding the book better and getting a more detailed analysis on each chapter in the book.

Post

2005-02-07T20:08:00.000-05:00

Checking to see if my post is working, apparently the last one I tried did not go through.

2005-02-07T17:53:00.000-05:00

Testing 1 2 3!

2005-02-07T13:54:00.000-05:00

a test...

Testing

2005-02-07T10:25:00.000-05:00

Just checking to see if it's working

Testing

2005-02-05T17:40:00.000-05:00

Just making sure all this stuff works alright.

Making Sense of it All

2005-02-05T14:17:00.000-05:00

I think some great points were brought up in class last week. One reason that some people are having a hard time getting into The Odyssey is because they are reading this epic out of context and with modern eyes and minds. When new information enters the brain, the brain compares this information to what it already knows. It probably has been many years since most of us have read The Odyssey; As we are reading it again, our brain compares this book to the most recent literature or epic that we have read which is unfair to this epic. People who have studied Homer’s work and Greek literature have a better understanding of the context of The Odyssey. Their brains compare this epic to their knowledge of Greek history, epics, etc.; however, the rest of the class fails to fully appreciate this work of art, because they simply do not know all of the background information. They lack the proper knowledge to compare this piece of literature. The Odyssey can be so deep; yet, without the knowledge of all the characters, gods, and other things that are referenced to it, it becomes less than what Homer intended or assumed it to be. Regardless of whether one is steeped in Greek knowledge or simply reading The Odyssey at face value, the truth of the matter is that we all are required to read it this semester, forcing us to make sense of it in our own personal way. It was very interesting in class the other day to see the different elements that people enjoyed from this epic. Speaking for myself, I only read things that I feel are pertinent or applicable to me. Even when reading required material, I find myself trying to squish the reading into a framework that will make the most sense to me and fit my life the best. One point that has recurred in class several times is that one of the greatest elements of The Odyssey is that every reader can feel empathetic toward a character or part of this epic. Despite prior knowledge or appreciation of how this epic was written, everyone has to find their own way on this journey through The Odyssey.

Testing

2005-02-03T16:38:00.000-05:00

I hope we all have a fun semester.

We missed you

2005-02-03T12:56:00.000-05:00

Those of you who didn't make it to class today missed some important discussion.

We did a close analysis of Homer's methods of portraying character in book 4 of the Odyssey through allusion, storytelling, and description. I think it was an eye-opener for those in attendance, who had not previously noticed the richness and texture of Homer's art.

My weather policy is that class is held whenever the university is open, and students are expected to attend. I'll try to keep the bad weather to a minimum, but sometimes I just have to let it fly . . .

Blog Post Test

2005-02-03T07:58:00.000-05:00

Just testing to make sure I know how to do this cool blog stuff. Hope everyone has a wonderful day despite the weather!

Up and Bloggin

2005-02-03T07:05:00.000-05:00

Hello everyone, just making sure my account was working in good order. Have a wonderful day!

What's so great about the Trojan war?

2005-02-02T21:34:00.000-05:00

After rereading book 4, I was struck by the importance that the Trojan war plays in the story. Menelaos expects that his guest-friends have heard of his exploits and those of the Greek army. In the Aeneid, Aeneas sees pictures of the war carved on their monuments - and he has just arrived there. Is it possible that the Trojan war is supposed to have a universal application to the struggles and wars of mankind, or is there something truly great and timeless about this one particular conflict such that the news of it travels in front of those involved in it?

Odysseus' Relationships

2005-02-02T00:20:00.000-05:00

I believe it is not just to compare the Odyssey to modern works or modern ideals. This poem was created during a very different time, thousands of years ago, when socially things were very different. For example the relationship between Penelope and Odysseus was an ideal relationship and a loyal one in the eyes of most people in antiquity. Greek and Roman women were expected to display certain characteristics, none of these included unfaithfulness sexually or otherwise, while the men were not as restricted by these social standards. Weaving and being a good host are some of the other characteristics that Penelope displays in addition to her loyalty. My point here is that the definition of loyalty in ancient times is very different than our modern description. It was perfectly acceptable for a man to sleep with a slave or a lower class women, but for a women to do the same would be unspeakable. In Odysseus' case his infidelity may have saved his life, but I am positive he was not completely opposed to the events that took place with Kalypso and Circe. So in the Odyssey, Odysseus is being faithful to Penelope in the since that, he returns to her after this long, challenging journey and also because his marital affection never dissipates, despite his wandering body.

Also on the issue discussed in class on 02-1-05 (Tuesday) I wonder about the relationship between Odysseus and his men, he is the only one that makes it though this adventure. He seems very careless with his companions, particularly in the case in book 9. He enters the cave of the one eyed giant Polyphemus, with twelve of his best men. His men just want to take cheese and lambs and leave, but Odysseus is determined to see this creature and find out if Polyphemus will give him a"guest-present". So of course instead of presents he eats in pairs most of his twevle best men. Not only are Odysseus' men eaten but later they are cursed as they sail away. Because of his pride he leads his men into danger and they die as a result. To add to this carelessness he can not resist telling the now blind monster his name as they sail away and yet again, men are put in harms way. Polyphemus prays to his father Poseidon for the curse that Odysseus shall return alone, meaning everyone with him, including his wife's brother are going to die as a result of his curiosity. As Odysseus boards the ship after escaping the cave he sees his other men and it reads "we drove the long-striding sheep, rich with fat, until we reached our ship, and the sight of us who had escaped death was welcome to our companions, but they began to mourn for the others; only I would not let them cry out"(lines 465-468). This shows me while he is King and the men follow his orders that he is careless because of his power and pride, and this results in the death of his companions. Coments? ~ RomanPietas

On gods and men

2005-01-28T22:17:00.000-05:00

I would like to reach back to the class discussion from this past Monday when we briefly discussed what might lie behind the god's interaction with men. Mythology primers aside, the Odyssey seems to present a very sincere interaction and, at least in the case of Athena, a sincere devotion to mortals and their well-being - or annihilation. We will encounter a similar picture when we read the Aeneid. Naturally,we can see a clear connection between these two stories as Vergil deliberately borrowed and improved the Greek tale. Nevertheless, my interest remains on this theme of the god's interest in men.

Part of my interest comes from having read an article on Lucretius' poem, De Rerum Natura, by Martha Nussbaum [ “Moral Immortality: Lucretius on Death and the Voice of Nature,” Journal of Philosophy and Phenomenological Research vol. 1, no. 2 (December 1989): 304-305]. I tried to find a link to this online and failed, but I would strongly recommend reading it. In the essay Nussbaum summarizes Lucretius' portrayal of the gods as creatures who "have reflection without vulnerability" whereas humans have "reflection with vulnerability." That is, the gods are fully cognizant but do not suffer anxiety because they do not have to face death - they inhabit a separate kind of existence. If we can adopt a similar view of the gods across Greek and Roman culture, which I think is fair for the time being, then any interaction with humans on the part of the gods is that much more peculiar because the gods seem to understand and sympathize with human suffering even though it is something that they do not experience and therefore cannot fully comprehend.

I think the key to the god's interest is found in the fact that both god's and humans are reflective beings. Regardless of their differences in status, power, etc., the gods recognize a kind of equality with men because of this "reflection." A ready parallel of a divinity's recognition of a kind of equality with man comes from the God of Israel at the tower of Babel: "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. Then the Lord said, 'They are one people and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them'." Thoughts?

~ your friendly neighborhood southernagrarian

-ps- in honor of Zeus, our leader and moderator:)

Welcome, CCI 227 students!

2005-01-27T11:33:00.000-05:00

I hope that today's quick lesson on blogging was helpful. Don't worry about getting it all right away; we'll have time to work out the kinks as we progress. E-mail me (wharton@uncg.edu) if you have problems.

A couple of reminders: once you've signed up as a contributor to this blog, write down your user name and password. Don't give it to others. Allowing others to post to this blog under your name is a violation of the UNCG Academic Honor Policy.

If you decide to post under a pseudonym, you need to reveal to me who you are (or I won't be able to assign a grade to you for your posts!), though you needn't reveal it to anyone else. Your secret will be safe with me.

Remember to be circumspect and polite. Don't say or link to anything that's obscene, hateful, or offensive. Think before you click the "publish" button.

Use this blog to engage the class in discussion. Be adventurous. If you find interesting web resources, link to them. Have fun!